The Hartlib Papers

Title:Copy Treatise In Scribal Hand ? On Lutherans And Images, John Dury
Dating:undated
Ref:68/6/1A-10B: 9B, 10A BLANK
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          A Demonstration that the Lutherans are
            not Idolaters, and that it is not
            vnlawfull to resort vnto their publicke
                    meetings. /
Sir.
In my reply to your Answere, you gaue mee cause (because I did study to giue you full satisfaction) to make a promise to declare my selfe on two questions. 1. What I thinke of the Images which are in the Lutheran Churches; whither or no they are to be called Idolls. 2. Why I thinke it not vnlawfull for mee to resort vnto their meetings: but rather vnlawfull both for mee and others to abstaine from the same, soe longe as they doe not cast vs out by raylings and blasphemies.
I entend nowe to fullfill my promise breifely.   Therefore to speake of the first question, I saye that I Iudge the Images that are in the Lutheran Churches to bee no Idolls; because the definition of an Idoll; doth not befall vnto them, for in my apprehension, An Idoll is an Image erect to bee an obiect of worshipp: whereby some supposed deitie is to bee honoured in the mynd of the Worshipper such Images are not in the Lutheran Churches therefore in my Iudgement they are no Idolls.
Now to let you vnderstand my mynd aright, I will enlarge my selfe vpon the poynt, to shewe you the originall & formall causes of Idolls and Idolatrie in my conception I suppose then that at the first the Gentiles beinge ignorant of the true god, and yet hauinge the Generall impression which God hath left in all mens harts that there [catchword: is]
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is a god. Romans 1. 19. fell (by the degrees of sinnes which the Apostle rehearseth Romans 1. from the 21 till 26.) to serue and worshipp in their Imagination such Gods as were not Gods by nature, as the Apostle calleth them, Galatians 4.8. for to vs that knowe the God by nature, there is but one onely god and Lord ouer all 1.Corinthians 8.6. although otherwise in the world and euen accordinge to scripture there be many that are called both in heauen and in earth such are many Gods, and Lords ibid. v.5. to wit, by diuine or humaine denomination, and appoyntment, for the Gods that are by diuine denomination and appoyntment whether in heauen or in earth, are such to whom the word of God is come: that is to whom God hath giuen Commission to execute in his name ouer others power and Iurisdiction, in respect they haue a sparke of authoritie from him they are called Gods. John 10. 34. 35. But the Gods that are by humane denominacion and appointment were Imaginarie Deities, which the Gentiles conceiued to themselues to bee worshipped and feared. /
The first originall of this conception is set downe by the Apostle. Romans 1. 21. 22. the effects of it are v.23. and the Iudgements followinge therevpon are from v.24. till the end.
The particular conceptions which they had of their Imaginary Deities are to bee found in the cheife philosophers that were best skilled in the Heathenish religion, if a man will see what they held, hee may find notable passages of their Doctrine. Plato de [catchword: Sempos:]
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Sempos: in Plutarch de defectu oracul: who bringeth the Antiquitie of this Doctryne as farre as Zoroastrefy; in Apulæus de Demonio Socratis and also in Cratylo Platonis, besides these the fathers will giue light to this matter: where they haue had occasion to debate this matter against Heathen Theologists as Origen Lib. 8. contra Celsum pag. 940. & Porphirius in Euseb: & August: lib. 8. de ciuit: dei. c. 18. & lib. 9. c.9. & 17. /
The summe of all their conceptions to be learned from hence and other fathers in my opinion, is this, that they did Imagine some gods to be soveraign that did not meddle with the affaires of the inferiour world, those they called Deos superos atque Cælestes, and they supposed those to dwell in heauenly lights, as it were the soules of those bodies from whence Plato thinkes, that the name of [Greek: theos] first came quasi [Greek: aei [theota?] chai [eonta?] dromo] in Ceatylo, and then they supposed that there were also other Gods of an Inferiour qualitie which they called Dæmones, which were in their opinion middle Deities subordinate to the soueraigne to bee executors of their wills towards man. [Apul:? altered] clearely sayth in Liber de Daemon: Socra cuncta cælestium voluntate numine et authoritate fiunt sed Dæmonum obsequio, opera, et ministerio and it seemeth that the scripture mencioneth both these kinds of Idolls which Manasseh worshipped 2: Chronicles 33. 3. for by the hoste of heauen is meant the heathens Cælestiall Gods and by Baalim[altered] is meant their Dæmons, soe also 2.Kings 23. 5. and Chap: 17. 16. the originall of these Dæmons came from the opinion which the Heathens had [catchword: of]
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of the soules of their great worthies which they deified after death makinge them in their Imagination to be substitutes vnto the other Deities, and to haue some power and charge in spirituall things as formerlye they had in the outward world, this is playne by all the fables of the Poets concerninge their gods, if wee conferre their relations with soe much truth as it hath in auncient heathens stories Now to doe pleasure to these Demons and Imaginarie gods, and to expresse their affection towards them in the way of worshipp, they did erect Images vnto the same: and they did Image vnto themselues, that those Dæmons were much pleased with the Images, and that they did resort thither where the Images were set for their honour, and that they delighted to dwell in the Image as it were in a house or as the Soule[altered from house] in a body this is playne from a passage which Eusebius citeth out of Porphirie, Imagines a deis [peramaris?] risilemque circumscrib: quasi in sacra quædam terra in Sacrata Imagine contineri, qua sublata illud quoque soluitur qua deus continetur. some of the heathen from this opinion haue called the Images Statuas animatas, et ornamenta plena divinæ communionis. this is called by Psellus Appropinquatio Dæmoniorum and it appeareth by S. Script. Leuiticus 26. v.1. that besides Images they vsed to erect pillars to the same effect: before which they did worshipp, or in which they worshipped the Dæmons and besides all this it appeareth by [Cl.?] Alexander Strom: Lib. 6. that they were wont to worshipp and reuerence the monuments and reliques of such Dæmons, supposinge that the soules deceased [catchword: and]
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and their reliques and shrynes or whatsoeuer in their life was neare vnto them, had some mutuall nearenes after death: soe that they supposed the Dæmons to dwell also and bee ordynarily conuersant there, where these things were respected and worshipped, this was the Imagination of the heathens aboute their Images which are therefore called truly [Greek: eidola] because they are species visibiles to their Imaginations of that which in their vnderstandings they affect and worshipp for [Greek: eidos] est species & [Greek: ido] video &c. sine idæa et Idolon   by this I suppose that my definition of an Idoll is sufficiently explained and proued, and it appeareth from scripture that this definition is true; because the Apostle speakinge of Idols and Idolatrie 1. Corinthians 10. 19. 20. maketh the matter cleare, by a question and answere, The question is raised vpon the occasion of a comparison which hee had made betwixt the partakinge of things sacrificed to Idolls, and of the table of the lord as matters incompatible thus; what say I then? that the Idoll is any thinge? (viz in itselfe) as or that which is sacrificed to the Idoll is any thinge? (viz. in itself) as Christ and his table is some thinge in itself. for seeinge the Comparison by way of opposicion is betwixt Christe and the Idoll and betwixt the things sacrificed to the Idoll and Christs Table, therefore from the realitie of the one, such a doubt must arise in mens mynds, as if there were also a reall beinge in the other) to this doubt [catchword: the]
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the Apostle answeareth and sayth nay to the question testifyinge as hee had sayd before Chap. 8. 4. that an Idoll is nothinge in the world, and the things sacrificed to Idolls are nothinge in themselues: but yet that in the intention & practise of the gentiles the Idoll was somethinge & the thinges sacrificed therevnto accordinge to their meaninge were sacrificed to Dæmons or deuills and not vnto God, and therefore hee would not haue the Corinthians to haue fellowshipp with the worshipp of Dæmons. Now if they did frequent their Idoll Feasts which were a part of their Dæmon deuotion they would bee partakers of the same, By this it appeareth that an Idoll is a representation of a Dæmon to bee honoured, now because honour and worshipp is expressed <to it> by settinge the Image in a secret place or publique place, by liftinge vp the eyes to it, by seruinge it and cheifely by bowinge and fallinge downe before it, therefore the Lord hath forbidden, all such actions tendinge to such an obiect and in the law hee giueth a reason why hee will not haue vs to vse anye such Gestures or actions towards Images, because that hee is a Iealous God that will not suffer the honour due vnto himself to bee giuen to others Esayah 42. 8. viz. to Dæmons or Grauen Images which in such a case become an obiect of adoration. soe in the second Commaundement I conceiue two things mainely forbidden wherein that Commaundement is materially distinguished from the first viz. that God will not haue any Image or likenes of any thinge to bee made to this intent or purpose that it should bee any obiect of [catchword: adoracion]
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adoration towards it, for although it were made by some Idolater to that effect, yet if there bee none that exercise Idolatry about it to serue and worshipp it, it is nothinge but a bare Image it is no Idoll, neither in respect of it self nor in the mynd of men, for I thinke that the formall cause and nature of an Idoll consisteth in this that it is in relation to a mans Imaginacion <&> senses as the obiect which is to bee worshipd is in the mynd and vnderstandinge by which meanes it becometh also an obiect of the affections and outward actions which are intended towards the cheife thinge which is worshippd. So then Idolatry in my conception is [Greek: latreia to eidolo] that is all seruice tending towards the Idoll whether it bee in the Imagination affection or outward gesture and action of a man and by this you may perceiue that I make the degrees of Idolatry to bee 4.fold the first is in the vnderstandinge when it apprehendeth a Deity which is not God by Nature. the 2d is the Imagination when it frameth an inward or outward Species of or to that Deity. The third is in the affection when it superstitiously and fearefully addicteth it self to the reuerence of that Deitie and of the Imaginarie Species thereof. And lastly in the outward gestures of Worshipp which followe vpon these superstitious and fearefull affections, where by the full act of Idolatrye is accomplished towards the outward Image and in this sence as it comprehendeth all these 4 degrees of Idolatry I conceiue the meaninge of the places of Scripture, which forbid the worshipping of Idolls, for I conceiue also 4. kinds of Idolls viz. the Idoll of the vnderstandinge which I call [catchword: the]
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the thinge which as a Deity is comprehended by it, & the Idolatry of the vnderstandinge (in my apprehension) is the turninge of the glory of that incorruptible god manifested in the hart of a naturall man from him to that other Deitie which hee in his vnderstandinge doth set vp vnto himself. The 2d, is the Idoll of the Imagination which I call the thinge which the phantasie of a man frameth to it self as an Idea or species of that deity whereby to represent it, and the Idolatry of the Imagination is the very settinge vp of that species to be honored with diuine glory in the mynd       for when this is done then the glory of god is turned into the similitude of the Image that is in his mynd of his foreconceiued Deitye.
The third Idoll is of the affection which is the Ioynt deity and species thereof as it were in one Masse apprehended, And the Idolatrie of the affection is the high estimation of that obiect whereby a man is inwardly moued to worshipp it with loue or feare and to subiect his spirit to it.
The 4th is the Idol of the outward senses which is framed by the hand accordinge to the foreconceiued Idea and species in an Image pillar or Relique, or in all at once, and the Idolatry of the outward senses in the Gesture of adoration, answearable to the inward affection Imaginacion and vnderstandinge which [catchword: re]
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reflecteth vpon the Idoll outwardly as those doe inwardly. By the two first degrees of Idolatrie that which the Apostle sayth Romans 1. 25. of the heathens that they turned the truth of God into a lye is fullfilled And by the two last that which hee imediately addeth in that same place, viz. that they worshippd and serued the Creature forsakinge the Creator that is blessed for euermore Amen is also accomplished./ For I conceiue that the truth of God in this place is the true instinct of a God that is God by nature. and that that truth is turned by the act of the vnderstandinge and Imagination (framinge to themselues another Deity <& species of that Deity>) into a lye, and that the worshippinge of the creature consisteth Cheifly in the act of the affection and the seruice in the act of the outward bodie, And by all this euery facultie and part of a mans soule and bodie forsaketh the Creator and setteth vp to it self the Creature as a God and soe is wholly made guilty of Idolatrie and receiueth as the Apostle sheweth in that Chap; to the Romans forenamed. v.22: the Iust recompence of their sinne in all their faculties of their soule and bodie for in their vnderstandinge and Imagination they became full of darkenes and vanitie verse 21:22: And in their affections they became vile by vnnaturall inclynations v.26. and in their bodies they became defiled: v.24. and by all this they were giuen ouer to a reprobate mynd to doe all things which were not conuenient. ver: 28, and [catchword: wee]
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wee see that both in the scriptures and in other stories the defilements of fornication and other dishonourings and disfiguringes of mens bodies as cuttings and launcings of the same did ordinarilye accompany the worshipping of Idolls and the Sacrifices made vnto them Apo: 2: 20: 1. Kings 18.28: and elsewhere in the sacrifices of Molech Baal and Peor./
By all this Sir you may conceiue what I call an Idoll and what I vnderstand by Idolatry and Idolaters. And this I will yeild vnto you that all Images erected in the mynd or outwardly to the intent of worshipp are Idolls, and all actions to deferre honour Due to god or to his Worshipp towards an Image in any of all these forenamed respects or degrees is Idolatrie, But now in my experience and obseruation, soe farre as I haue acquaintance with the Lutheran Churches and professors of Lutheranisme[altered], I neuer yet found anye Images erected or pictures framed in their Churches to that effect neither met I euer with any that make profession of Lutheranisme who I could Iudge <left margin: guilty> of any degree of all this Idolatry, But in their vnderstandinge concerninge God and his properties they are sound and professe all the truth which wee mayntayne of him.   Therefore it is to bee supposed that their Imaginations and affections are also entire, and for their outward bodily Gestures I neuer saw any regard the Image more then [catchword: a]
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a man doth another picture of triuiall vse, soe in my Iudgement I dare not condemne them to bee Idolaters nor those Images to bee Idolls.
Because I find their writinges against the Idolatry of Papists (which in all these pointes agrees fully with the Heathenish Idolatry; for their whole worshippinge of Angells and Saints and of the Images and reliques of those is fully <in all things> the very same with the Heathenish Idolatry of Dæmons) very sound and well grounded in the word of God.   And their practise agreeth soe farre with their Doctryne that no Image is made by them to bee an obiect of any kind of worship neither is there any worship and seruice in the least kind that euer I haue observed, deferred to the Images which they haue by any of the members of their Churches, My opinion and Iudgement of them therefore is, that they observe really the whole substaunce of the second Commaundement in their practise and Doctryne Although they leaue it out in their Catechisme Now if you aske of mee here, why then leaue they out the second Commaundement, and why doe they keepe still the Images, whereof some perhaps in former tyme haue serued to the Papists for Idolls.
I answere that I mynd not to take vpon mee the defence or the excuse of them for doeinge [catchword: eyther]
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eyther of these thinges, Nay I confesse freely they ought not to alter an Iota of the Decalogue but should deliuer it to their Children as God hath written it with his owne finger, And I wish earnestly from my heart that they could bee induced to put away all Images out of their Churches, and to destroy such Images as in former tyme haue been vsed to Idolatry.   But because the tyme is not yet come, wherein this can bee wrought vpon them and because they are not accessary to Idolatry, and make not of their Images Idolls in any respect, therefore I thinke it my dutie to beare with them till God further moue their hearts to more perfect obedience and knowledge of his will. In the meane tyme although they bee defectiue in this I dare not presume for my part to accuse them or condemne them in that whereof they are not guilty, yea I thinke my self bound thus to bear witnes of their Innocency against your heavy accusation which publiquely you haue layd to their Charge wrongfully callinge them Idolaters, and vpon that ground preachinge a seperation from them to bee necessary, wherein I doe thinke you doe wronge both to them and to the state of protestant Churches neither doe your motiues which in your reply are alleadged, warrant the condemnacion which you intend against them, for they will deny [catchword: that]
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that they doe any of these things which are mentioned and forbidden. Deuteronomy 27. 15. Ezekiel 18. 6. Exodus 23. 24. Hosea 4. 15. Amos. 5. 5. And they will say that their Images stand there for no other vse, but for a mere ornament of the place without any respect intended or done at all vnto them, And indeed for my part I see no argument which you can vse against them to make your accusation good but this, whosoeuer haue painted or grauen Images in their Churches they are Idolaters; The Lutherans haue them, Ergo. here they will deny the Maior. If then you intend to proue it, I suppose you will bee driuen to this, to maintayne that all painted or grauen Images of persons esteemed to bee holy are Idolls. which I thinke can hardly bee made good:
And I suppose you will not vndertake the proofe of it, yet in your practise (in this discourse and former preachings) you seeme to take all things as graunted, and therevpon ground your accusation To weake Iudgements this may carry a shewe of reason, and breed a scruple in mens consciences and lay a ground for seperation without a iust cause and breed or feed a hatred, in the mynds of men against such as professe the same religion which wee doe, although not with the same degree of knowledge and obedience, in all [catchword: matters]
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matters of circumstantiall duties: which defects I will not excuse or palliate, for I say that they are such as deserue a censure: But yet not such as may cause a Schisme and seperacion, which by your Doctryne you haue preached to your hearers, vpon a ground of false accusation against those that are innocent of Idolatrie. And this much concerninge the first question, from which you can easily gather my Answere to the second question to bee this: That I thinke it not vnlawfull for mee to resorte to their meetings, because their meetinges are not vnlawfull (nor such as you would make them bee) Idolatrous, But (in my Iudgement) truely religious, Although perhaps not soe perfect in euery thinge as may bee requisite. Nay I thinke it vnlawfull both for mee and others to absteine from the same soe longe as they cast vs not out for these reasons. /
1. First because in the Iudgement of all the reformed Churches, from the beginninge of the reformacion, to this very daye, they haue been alwayes acknowledged to haue beene a true Church agreeinge with vs in <the> fundamentalls of religion and in my Iudgement vpon experimentall tryall I find them to bee soe; therefore I am bound in Conscience not to seperate from them but must followe the Apostles Commaund Ephesians 4. 2.3.4. Phillipians 3. 15.16.
2. Secondly because their weakenesses are such [catchword: as]
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as must bee borne withall, and they must bee borne withall by vs, that thinke ourselues better instructed and stronger then they[altered from these] for this is the rule Romans 15. 1.
3. Thirdly because wee are bound to haue Communion with the good of all men: and to please our neighbour in that which is good to his edification. Romans 15. 2. 3. and wee must ouercome the euill of men by the good. which is either in vs or in themselues Romans 12. 21./
4. Because the Apostle by his example teacheth vs to become all things to all men, in seekinge the good of others, 1. Corinthians 10. 24. and in accommodatinge himself towards others in all thinges that are lawfull in Christe. 1.Corinthians 9. 19. 20. 21. 22. verses. /
5. Because Christe doth Commaund the Iewes of his tyme to heare the Scribes and Pharisees, whome neuerthelesse hee doth publiquely condemne for hipocrites; for persecutors of the Saintes, for proud. and for some points of erronious Doctryne: as may bee seene Matthew 23. 3. 37. Now I suppose you cannot Iustly lay any such Charge to the Lutheran preachers of your acquaintance in these parts or in other parts and I am sure you are not of such authoritie as Christ was to make seperacion betwixt man and man for matters of religion, And if hee would <not> that was the master of the house of God any schisme to bee in the family [catchword: of]
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of his father for such faults of the leaders, farre lesse ought wee to presume to make a partie for our selues for faults of a lesser moment, and for faults whereof wee cannot make ourselues absolute Iudges against others.
6. And lastly because wee are commaunded not to giue any offence neither vnto the Iewes nor vnto the Græcians, nor vnto the Church of God 1.Corinthians 10. 32. Now if I should make a seperacion from them either in my affection or in my consolacion I shold not bee without offence towards them, seeinge I Iudge them to bee a true Church and therefore I must not make any seperacion, and abstayne from their meetings, cheifely when I haue no other meetings to resort vnto, where I can enioy more perfectly the ordinances of God, And although there were other congregations in this place of the reformed profession; yet I would not wholly absteine from the Lutheran meetings onely to testifie and keepe[altered] the vnitie of the spirit in the bond of peace and thereby to take occasion to edifie them to drawe them by little and little from the errours and Imperfections vnder which they lye.
Thus I haue endeauoured to giue you satisfaccion to the two questions which I promised to resolue if this doe not satisfie; propose clearely your doubt, & state in the questions and I shall not refuse to let you knowe my opinion, if you thinke I erre eyther in Doctryne or practise, shew mee [catchword: the]
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the right way and I shall followe you without contradiction, if you haue nothinge to saye against this (as I suppose) truth and right way of practise; Giue glory to god acknowledge it, leaue your accusations and followe this practise./
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[Hand Y:]                      That the Lutherans
                               are not Idolaters.