The Hartlib Papers

convicted hereof that nowadays the Lutherans which take most vpon them to debate matters with us are degenerated from the Integrity of doctrine which was in theire First Master, & that therefore they must bee dealt withall vpon other grounds then such as are taken from his Authority, allthough in due time & place allsoe those Arguments may bee vsefull, The Advertisement which you give mee of my Lord Marq. & Mr Vernon is to bee taken notice of & (God willing,) when I come againe from Gluckstad for thither I purpose to goe within a day or two to speake with my Lord Ambassadour who is there to treate with the K: I will not faile to write vnto him & perhaps to his Master allsoe: I aproove his whole Iudgement which you write vnto mee concerning <H: Felgenhawer> of whom <H: when> I have leisure I will tell you my mind more particularly. / [Hartlib's hand:] I approue of your Counsel concerning a Narrative of my proceedings and God willing I will put it in Execution when j come backe from Gluckstad in the meane time you haue those Copys of the viz <Copiam> Letter. Principis Augusti Brunwicensis et Lunebergensis ad P. Georgium. 2. Copiam Declarationis Theologorum Brunwicensium. 3. Copiam Declarationis Theologorum Hildeshensium et Lunæburgensium. As for Ravius [word deleted] j must tell you [scribal hand:] truely that I have not as yet beene able to enquire after his Logicall <H: notions> & truely I am all most loath to spend money vpon any more bookes till I bee settled one way or other & know how to subsist. I have caused my treaty with the Danes to bee printed at Bremen & expect 150 Coppies thereof with the first, I know not what these will Cost mee:

[left margin: 4] Ambassador of his owne accord when I went out gave [right margin: 4] mee a viaticum of 20 Rixd & I had then a matter of 46 or thereabout <with mee> of myne owne & I With that Stocke I went out & received 100 Rixd. more from Mr Avery Neither yet would I have beene able to hold owt in any fashion (things are soe extreamely Chargeable in travelling) except Gods providence beyond all expectacion had assisted mee in moving Duke George of Luneburg to defray mee & give mee free entertainement whilst I stayed at Hildesheim. I relate this Story to let you see that I must needs begin to bee more circumspect then in Spending then I thinke you Imagine I should bee, because I cannot endure to bee in debt & therefore allthough I pay not the other 50 Rixdollars as yet due to Mr Avery yet I purpose[Hartlib alters] not to spend of that money which remaineth in my hand more then will leave mee full handed to pay that I am owing & in Case I bee not timely supplyed I must live vpon 26 Rixd. which I have for necessaries & to doe all the other busines which I have mentioned upon this stocke, for 50 Rixd. must lye by mee in readines & entire till I see a reall possibillity of paying Mr Avery another way. This [letter deleted] is my condicion in matter of debt to thinke it an insufferable burthen till it bee discharged Therefore what I owe I thinke it not mine owne allthough I have it in my hand. [Hartlib's hand:] I have heard that Bishop Morton is deceased if it bee so j pray learne to whom j might write to procure the printing of the Treatise which hee had in readines and promised to put forth. In his last printed declaration hee doth offer it to the Public. It would bee very seasonable that it should now

bee put to the presse because I have moved a chief doctor amongst the Lutherans to write on the same subject in the same way of moderation from Antiquity and would faine that both should come forth together. Dr Crocius hath writt to me to give his addresse to Bishop davenant and Bishop Hall to haue their judgements of certain passages therof which some evil willers doe misinterpret. I desire that you would with the first ship post[altered] send mee a dozen of Copies of the English sentences which were printed last in London that I may make vse of them. Also a Coppy of the Brittish Counsels lately given out by Sir H. Spelman: For I haue promised to procure it to dr Calixtus.

Declaracion of theire propensity to further it unto mee & that more is, hee himselfe did of his owne accord <(when hee had fully beene enformed of my purpose & way) did> write thus to his Couzen Duke George of Luneburge to prepare a way for mee towards the full accomplishment of my desires, which allsoe did fall owt soe effectually in theire particular resolucions I meane of the Divines <& Statesmen> Brunswic & Luneburg <of Hildesheime>, that I was constrained (least they should bee too forward) to limitate & stopp them in theire proceedings till matters should bee brought to a greater Maturity, In like manner at Zell (where Duke Frederic doth reside) all manner of good inclinacions were showed unto the matter & meanes of Agreement which I have proposed in soe much that I could not wish for more successe at this present./

mony to doe all this? if j must live long in this case, I shall bee consumed with cares. But j will not complaine towards you. My charges overwhelme mee for the present so that I cannot tell you what I haue resolued to doe with the writes which I sent you last. Only I desire[altered] you to keepe them by you and to multiply Copies therof in the meane time.

then to have all the outward Conveniances which I could wish for, For indeed when I recall myselfe I must say that I am a foole thus to bee troubled seeing I know that God doth Care for mee & if my workes doe please him <that> hee will not suffer them to fall to the ground but will give mee Counsell what to doe & show mee an Issue out of all these perplexing Cares, Therefore I must now condemne my selfe from beeing cast backe thus farr from the performing of a present duety by reason of the little appearrance of meanes to subsist in time to come soe as to performe that which hereafter should bee intended. If I had beene wise I should[H alters from could] have suffered every day to care for itself & leave future things to Gods providence over mee wherein all things to him are present & to allay the vnquietnes of my Spirit in respect of future Cares & present evills that I may soe beare them as in the middest[altered] thereof to doe every poynt of my duety, pray thus with mee & soe let mee fall to worke I intend to give you first a breife narrative of my <last> proceedings whereby you will see the state of my business & then I would tell you what I would have you to doe for mee.

& did command them by his letter to consider the things which I did propose vnto them & to give in their Answer, having then made acquaintance with them & enformed them of the Circumstances of my worke & gotten theire promise of future Concurrence I came to [Stade? altered] & there I did move the magistrates to recommend & <H: in> like manner the busines I vnto theire Divines which they did & got a promise from both that an Answer hould be given to mee & sent towards Hamburg, Then having made a little stay at Hamburg I set forward towards Brunswic intending (with foreknowledge of the Duke) to goe for Helmstad to treat with the Divines of that place somewhat largely, but the Duke having appointed some of his Counsellours to conferre with mee to know my particular Intention I <H: and> having received both from them & myselfe [letter deleted] by write & out of the printed Declaracions which I gave him [letter deleted] sufficient informacion of my purpose hee thought fitt to cause mee stay at Brunswic till hee should send for the Divines of Helmestad to come to mee rather then let mee goe to them, This hee did & when the cheife of them (Dr Calixtus) For the other viz Dr Horneus was sicke) was come, hee adjoyned to him his generalissimum superintendentem & his Generalem Superintendentem & another which was all soe Superintendens but onely of a particular distrjct[altered] & with these did appoint some of his privie Counsell

to bee at our meeting & Conference. Wherein both fore noone & afternoone (for wee spent a whole day together) God did grant vnto vs a very amiable[altered from aimiable] agreement & Consent of Iudgments in the scope & meanes & manner of proceeding to attaine vnto more vnity then hitherto hath beene enjoyed the summe whereof you have allready received in the Declaracion which afterwards Dr Calixtus did set to paper which being done & given to mee to make vse of for the disposing of others towards my worke, & I having made knowne that I purposed to goe to Duke George of Luneburg to conferre at Hildesheim allsoe with his Divines, Duke Augustus of his owne accord did send a very effectuall letter with mee to recommend the worke vnto him of which allsoe the Coppy hath beene sent vnto you allready. therefore being come to Hildesheim I was very favourably entertained & because the Christmas Holy dayes fell on I was desired to expect the time of calling together some Divines which could not bee till the Holy days were at an end which being come to passe & I lodged in a place appoynted by the Duke to entertaine mee together with one of them whom hee had sent for wee had for the Space of allmost 14 dayes occasion of daily conference & in that time our acquaintance & familiarity grew soe great not onely betwixt vs two that were lodged together but with the rest of the Cheife Clergy & with the Counsellours

of that Prince that they became more forward or at least noe lesse forward both in affeccion & in accion then I my selfe was for nothing was left vntouched which could make for the way of peace & noe lesse honour & respect was done vnto mee then if I had beene an Ambassadour sent vnto them from some state to make a league, Soe that I was sometimes troubled at it & knew not well how eyther to moderat the Excessive expressions of theire good will towards mee or to decline that which was more then my due & onely befitting a Solemne Ambassage & Commiscion of a publique state, This I relate to show an Argument of theire reality to <H: in> the more Special part of the busines, For if I would have gone to a particular transaction of the busines & Conclusion of matters I had assurance from the Chancellour & other Counsellours that it would have beene accepted but I did not judge that expedient & moved theire owne Divines to disswade them from too great forwardnes remonstrating the Inconvenients that would ensue therevpon & proposing some other Counsells whereby wee might bee joyned in a way of Concurrence to Cooperate vniformely & Correspondently in the Worke which they did accept of & a draught thereof being made & Communicated to the Counsell it was allowed by them & soe settled as a resolution to bee

followed, The summe thereof is, that theire cheife divine should performe a Speciall takse whereby hee should dispose & prepare the rest of the Lutheran party in vpper Saxony & in vpper Hassia to favour Those Intentions & that the prince himselfe should by his Authority towards the Dukes of Weimar cheifely & other Lutheran princes neerer at hand or Counts in neighboring places move them to concurre & set forward the worke according to the impartiall Councells which they <H: were> imparted to them, Soe every divine got his taske first to correspond with other neighbouring Divines that were of note to impart vnto him[altered] these[H alters from those] well meant puposes & Consultations & the Statesmen tooke allsoe theire taskes to labour with neighbouring Princes Counsellours to that <the same> effect, that at last the Princes themselves might to <H: some> solemne effect bee publiquely seene in it, & when things should bee on the Lutheranside neere about brought to this maturity that evill Surmises & prejudicate oppinions & the memory of past quarrells should not bee able to frustrate vs of the hopes of further Successe, then it was resolved what should bee further intended by them towards vs to bring on the matter to perfeccion & by vs towards them to answer theire good endeavours till the vnity might be fully compleated, These resolutions being agreed vnto on both sides & I having promised to doe my part therein afterward when they had given mee a publick Audience at the

Counsell table & the Divines who have subscribed the act being present when I had conferred at large with them the write which you have received dated at Hildesheim was made to be beare witnes of the summe of our Resolucions Then I was invited together with the Cheife <H: of the> divines who was sent for to conferre more particularly with mee vnto the Dukes Table & after diner hee Conferred himselfe (being assisted with his Chancellour[altered] & two more of his Counsellours with vs to show vs the reality of his affeccion & purpose in this busines thus a whole month was spent (but never better spent in this worke) at Duke George Court, from whence I went to his Brother Duke Frederic of Cell, [l?] rather to inform his Counsellours & Divines of that which was passed at Hildesheim then to enter into any further Negotiation with them & according to this resolucion soe I did treate with him onely for a general consent[H alters from assent] to what was passed <H: past> at <H: Brunswic and> Hildesheim which having obtained from them after few dayes abode, there I came towards the Citty of Luneburg where having conferred with the Prior of the Cloister & his minister of the Church belonging to it & with the Senior Pastour of the Citty (because the Superintendens was dead whiles I was at Celle) to whom I gave the same matters to thinke vpon concerning my worke which formerly had beene

given for the same end vnto those of Hamburge & Lubecke I came away to Hamburg backe againe after allmost three monthes absence from it & seeing I did not find my lord Ambassadour there to give him informacion of what was past but heard that hee was at Gluckestad with the King I went thither to him & there having dealt with the king's Chancellour to shew him in generall the successe of my proceedings in Brunswic & Luneburg & with the Prince the ArchBishopp of Bremen (who by chance came thither) to thanke him for the answer which hee caused bee sent to mee from his divines by his Chancellour, I had alsoe admittance to kisse his Majestys hands & to thanke <H: him for the fauours[altered?] which> hee had showed vnto my worke, desiring him to continue the same & to suffer mee to continue still in a Course of Intelligence with his Divines about this busines, which his Majesty having testifyed to bee his liking allthough hee did with all intimate that it was not fitt for himselfe to appeare any more in it then hee had all ready done, till I should bee enabled with some Commission or letter from the king our Soveraine to him, to treate more Authentically with his Divines yet I thought good to present vnto his Chancellour certaine writes to bee imparted vnto the Divines of Copenhagen to give them matter of further Deliberacion & matter <H: occasion> to pitch vpon more profitable resolucions then hitherto they seeme to have done, Thus you have gotton a full narrative if you

observe but one thing more which is this, That I have layd some good foundacion of intelligence, & Correspondency betwixt Dr Bergius & Dr Calixtus at Hellmestat which I hope shall proove in the Advancement of this busines of singular vse if onely Dr Alting who is somewhat too too much averse from brotherly affeccion which hee oweth to Dr Crocius doe not disturb theire freedome of entertaineing those thoughts soe readily as otherwise noe doubt they would with the Lutherans, & to take away this inconveniency allsoe I have begun to deale with Dr Alting & to mediate betwixt him & Crocius to cause them vnderstand one another a little better then hitherto they have done, they have heretofore jarred somewhat at the Synod of Dordrecht & because they are both somewhat high tuned they have never since made a good harmony together but are now quite Dissonant & Dr Alting doth not spare sharpe Censures & some kind of railing accusacions against the other whom I have persuaded to all kind of moderacion & forbearing in words & accions wherevnto hee himselfe is more addicted then the other with whom I must now begin to talke allsoe least hee runne himselfe into some inconveniences which I would bee loath to see. I have done with the first part of this intended discourse towards you, Now

I come to tell you what I would have you to doe that you may assist mee. Two things are to bee procured First some bookes which I will name to you must bee sought out & sent over, Secondly I will expect your [right margin: X] Counsell & of other Freinds in some cases which you shall find here sett downe at the latter end. [Hartlib's hand:] [t?] The bookes which I entreate with the very first to bee sent over vnto mee are these [t?] 1. ten or 12 Copies [right margin: X] of the Latin Sentences of our English Bishops of the last Edition 2. The Articles or any thing of our Church Constitutions that is to bee had in Latin Tongue. For these will bee of vse vnto mee from henceforth chefly when I shall setle & fall to worke in another way! But good God how and when shall j once come to it? What Counsel can you giue mee to settle som where? I pray you think vpon it and let those cases bee considered. 1. What I shall resolue when my Lord Ambassador doth goe from hence which hee saith will bee in Iune? 2. What if hee stay all this year how I should doe to become not so dependant and astricted vnto him as hitherto I haue beene? 3. If none other Patronage can bee had nor maintenance to subsist freely and goe cheerfully about my taskes whether or no it bee not best to retire myself and leave the worke at this period rather then to prostitute myself to all inconveniencys with such losse of time and wasting of my spirits as I foresee my fall out if j haue no maintenance to subsist more independantly then hitherto I haue beene able?

desirous to have & I have promised to procure them for him. 3. the Leiturgy of the Church of England translated into latine for I have seene it heretofore[altered] in London[altered from Londone] but cannot well know where, I heare it is not hard to bee come by at Cambridge for whose vse it hath beene printed. Mr H[altered from Harris?] told mee that at peter-house & Iesus Colledge it is vsed/ the peece is much desired by those of Hildesheime because when I had related vnto them the tenour & Substance of it they were exceedingly delighted therewith & liked it much & importuned mee to procure it for them which I promised to doe if it was to bee had, therefore I pray you vse diligence towards freinds to send mee 2 or 3 Coppys that I may have one or two for myselfe 4. the Secretary of the High=Ecclesiasticall Court of Calemburg hath made[altered] mee promise to seeke out for him Palladius de Vitis Sanctorum monastrorum in England Therefore I pray you cause enquire[H alters from enquiry] for it & if it may bee had send it. I have promised to procure to D. Augustus my Lord Verulam's workes in Latine. but Mr Avery hath taken vpon him to send for the same therefore you need not trouble yourselfe about it yet. if there bee any new & rare thing come forth of late which you thinke will bee acceptable

vnto the Duke who is a man of learning & hath a mighty great library you may send it to mee for hee hath given mee a generall Commission to send any such thing to him & named a man here who is to pay the price of it when he it commeth. The articles of our Church I know are in Latine, & if the Cannons which I remember not to have seene in Latine bee allsoe translated or any thing of our Church Constitutions ellse is to bee had in that Common tounge I pray you procure mee a coppy or two thereof for it will bee of vse vnto mee from henceforth cheifely when I shall bee settle & fall to worke any other way. But good God how or when shall I once come to it? What Counsell can you give mee to settle some where? I pray you thinke vpon it & let these Cases bee considered: 1 What should<TRANS SWITCH="2"></TRANS> I<TRANS SWITCH="1"></TRANS> resolve when my Lord Ambassadour doth goe from hence which hee saith will bee in Iune & doth affirme it with much Confidence 2. What if hee stay all this yeare how should I doe to become not soe dependant and adstricted to him as hitherto I have beene? 3 If none other patronage can bee had or maintenance to subsist freely & goe there fully about my taskes whether or

noe it bee not best to retire my selfe & leave the Worke at this period rather then to prostitute my selfe to all inconveniences with such losse of time & wasting of my Spirits as I foresee may fall out if I have noe maintenance to subsist more independently then hitherto I have beene able? [Hartlib's hand:] I haue some thoughts of a proposition towards Mr V. But j would haue you first <left margin: to get this Narrative of my proceedings fairely and distinctly written out and> to trie whether or no my Lord Marquess will bee pleased to read it, and if hee will let the King see it advertise mee, that thereupon I may my ground some resolution which hereafter I will acquaint you withal.

of mee) I have done, I would have noe title nor quallity more then I have but onely a permission & approbacion to proceed in disposing the minds of divines (as my calling in divinity doth oblige mee) towards the meanes to peace & Godlynes If the king could bee moved to give mee a sufficiency of allowance to negotiat in these objects after mine owne way which shall bee noe ways prejudiciall but vsefull to all partyes soe farre a they agree in the grounds of Christianity I would thinke my selfe happy & by the grace of God be able to doe [mor?] <more> advantage henceforth in one or two yeare unto religion & learning then hitherto I have beene able to doe in a great many because now my acquaintance is made the grounds of proceeding are[altered] laid for to raise a spirituall building there on & the difficultyes & stumbling blockes are on all sides sufficiently discovered & God willing meanes can bee vsed to avoyd the Inconveniences which may rise from the same. Try what Counsell may bee found with him & amongst our friends to Compasse this aime & perhaps that you may have <seen?> a greater <H: a better> ground to worke by the next post I will give you some larger matter to propose in this kind. In the meane time see how my present necessityes may bee supplyed that I may have that which is necessary for the printing of things which are to bee sent

vnto you & allsoe towards the rest of the reformed Churches. There is a meeting of[altered from at] Zell the Princes of Low Saxony at Zell where the Dukes of Brunswic & Luneberg meet in person together with the ArchBishopp of Bremen. There my busines will bee thought vpon I am sure but I doe not thinke that my full resolucion will fall till there bee more open conjunction & Concurrence betwixt vs & them. Neyther is it fitt that wee should proceed in the way of State further as yet then to give Countenance & recommendacion to those that labour to take away the letts of I vnity by compelling[altered] mens affeccions & cleering theire doubts. The Lord direct vs in all our ways <H: and> to bee your safeguard & <H: all> sufficient reward.

such grudging & difficulty & opposicion that it is a vexacion to thinke on it Dr Altings his Faccions are Crosse to mee & my worke where they can. Thus men for privat ends & evill Surmises with out all ground care not to hinder the best intentions & endeavours which can bee vndertaken for the good of Church & Commonwealth but this wee must suffer till god send releife. I am even goeing to cause print the narrative matters which are to bee distributed vnto <H: amongst> the Churches & the Narratives, which are to bee sent vnto you. & when that is done, I would faine bee at a settled estate & if I could conveniently reside here I would gladly see it brought to passe but when I thinke how these desires may[altered] bee [brought altered from wrought? or vice versa?] about[altered]. I am overwhelmed within[altered from withins] my thoughts for soe many matters come within my come together which seeme to Crosse the same, that I am weary to thinke thereon & soe leave all of & give vp the Issue of matters vnto Almighty God. yet this cometh now in my mind as a proposall first to you & then to Mr V: that you would thinke thereon[altered from therevpon] & let mee know your opinion namely whether or noe I should desire of his majesty to stay still abroad & by whom I should desire that permission & how I should seeke

to bee maintained in this State. If consider the worke it selfe it is now come to that height that it [letter deleted] is not any more to bee medled withall in the[altered from they] way of privat treatyes without the concurrence of such Countenance as may make the <world> Credited[altered from Credit] by all, that there is still an[altered from and] inclinacion on our part to agitate & to ripen matters by writes & treatyes soe as I desire here Bishop Morton to doe, Soe then if I might bee permitted to goe goe on in such a kind of solicitacion which should bee prejudiciall to noe body but profitable vnto the public good of religion & learning & have meanes to subsist comfortably abroad I would oblige my selfe to all Cautions of harmelesnes that would bee required or could bee expected of mee. Now one of the Cheife Causes why I would be permitted (& by his Majesty himselfe) to stay abroad is that I may bee able to declare vpon occasion that it is not <H: hee that you can guesse at> but the K: <H: that> doth patronize mee in this negotiacion. for the evill will which is cast vpon the worke other doth every where redound I vpon mee & my worke by reason of the suspicions of men which are taken vp against him & all those that seeme to have any relacion to him, I

have some thoughts which I suddainely cannot vtter about this matter of staying abroad, & being some what independent from outward relacions[altered] but I purpose one of these dayes to set pen to paper & propose them to my Lord Ambassadour & when they are brought to maturity you shall have a Coppy thereof & I will tell you the way which I would have you to doe in proposing & insinuating of it to my freinds. The 70 Rixd. which I have gotten from Mr Avery the Deputy of the Company I desire that you would repay therevnto his Brother Samuell Avery out of the first money[altered from moneys?] which you receive for my <use> & then remitt the rest vnto mee by the same kind to bee payd here vnto mee by his Brother./